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conor king's avatar

I stumbled into this arcane debate via BS Brigade’s posts. Reading his posts and others I then encountered led me to the strong view that there is no good case for moral facts.

I could well be wrong. My main point is I cannot see how it matters.

Fact or preference - the fact advocates struggle to present a useful set of agreed such facts. Ones that would guide action on relevant matters.

I have used abortion as an example of something relevant. There are numerous coherent cases made that abortion is/is not OK. I cannot see that both outcomes can be facts - if only one is a fact how is that determined?

I say my position is my judgement.

What I get from the moral facts people is a need for certainly. They struggle with saying ‘I may be wrong but this is what I think I (or even other people) should do”.

Allan Olley's avatar

I mean my worry would be that not only are their no moral facts their are no egoistic facts, no facts about self-interest, either. The reasons for rejecting "self-interest" seem much like the reasons for rejecting "general interest" or "moral interest" to me.

You say "But as we know since Hume, normative reasons lack convergence among agents, hence rendering us incapable of defending categorical imperatives." As far as I can tell self-interested reasons lack convergence within the very same agent. Most obviously across time, but even at the same time.

The smoker smokes knowing he will probably get lung cancer and then when he gets lung cancer regrets smoking. Is there really a definition of self-interest that can reconcile this? Can you say there is some sort of definite self-interest achieved or satisfied, without saying either they were wrong to smoke or wrong to regret smoking. I don't think so either they were wrong to smoke (the immediate satisfaction of smoking was not good enough reason to risk lung cancer), wrong to regret smoking (the immediate satisfaction justified the risk and so the actuality of lung cancer) or there is not one self-interest rather it is an incoherent concept, it both was and was not in their self-interest. The case where we overrule one desire with another is just the kind of convergence we declared impossible between agents, there is no way to recover it in this case that I can see (taking the non-convergence as given), no new aspect of this situation that would allow convergence here. In the incoherent case no one will consistently get to a set of answers in their deliberation, depending on where they start they will come to different conclusions. They can conclude smoking is so good it is worth getting lung cancer for and just as easily and with no change in desires or knowledge conclude that lung cancer is so bad it easily overrides any satisfaction from smoking and so on. Some may think their desires and evaluation of "self-interest" is coherent, but that hardly seems probative of anything, people incoherent in that way could easily feel that way.

I say this is most obvious across time but also the case at the same time. I think this is plain. At the same time the smoker may be moved by desire to smoke and fear of its consequences. They may tremble with the conflicting desires as they try to resist lighting the cigarette or as they take a drag of it. Basically random changes in the order or time of deliberation would lead to different actions and outcomes there is no coherent desire here. More generally if I desire to survive I at once desire not to change (since if I change to much I am dead) but also to change (since if I stop changing I am also dead), even individual agent desires don't converge to anything.

If one can square the circle and smooth over the desires that contradict themselves and the contradiction of different desires at different times by the same agent to come up with some unified self-interest that is fulfilled then it should be straightforward to smooth over the conflicts between agents and derive a converging normative reason across them. To me both enterprises of convergence rise or fall together for better or worse (if indeed those words can mean anything). I don't see much chance of solving one without solving the other.

Luckily if self-interest is as chimerical as moral interest in this sense there is no danger it will make us less well-off in some other sense because given the incoherence of our deliberative judgements (and explicit desires etc.) the details clearly did not matter. Our behaviour would have been much the same (given the same circumstances). Clearly something other than inferential reliability of our decision making process was keeping us regular in our behaviour. Perhaps as the economists like to say it is "animal spirits" that seems very Humean. If there is some kind of non-moral non-self interest then hopefully our animal spirits or whatever is regulating our behaviour responds to that.

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